The Larry Hagman Interview

By Art Swift

July 23, 2004

Larry Hagman lives on. In a year when the legendary star of “Dallas” and “I Dream of Jeannie” endured a risky operation to replace part of his liver, Hagman has reemerged stronger and full of life. The 72-year-old actor, who is approaching his 50^th wedding anniversary, spoke this month from his home in Ojai, California, about his resurgent health, claims made by the British tabloid, the Mirror, “The Sopranos” and “Dallas”, his friendship with Carroll O’Connor and the actress he didn’t like working with.

Art Swift: How did you get started on “Dallas?”

Larry Hagman: I had done “Jeannie” before that so I wasn’t unknown. I was in New York City for a benefit my mother (Mary Martin) and Ethel Merman were doing for the New York Library. And I had about 15 minutes where I really had to take off and I got these two scripts. One was “The Waverly Wonders” about a basketball coach in high school, it was a half-hour comedy that I thought they wanted me for because I had been doing “Jeannie.” Maj (Mrs. Hagman) took the other one, which was “Dallas,” in another room. And after about five minutes I heard this “Whoop! Larry this is it! This is the one!” I read about five pages and everybody was a cad, everybody was a scoundrel. Mama (Barbara Bel Geddes), Daddy (Jim Davis), Bobby (Patrick Duffy), and everybody and I said, “Great! I can do that one!” This is something that I wanted to do. And it was a struggle at the beginning, we did five shows as a pilot, and then we got picked up for the remainder of the 13. Then we got picked up for another 13, and it just skyrocketed after that. When I was shot, after the second year, it just took off.

AS: Absolutely. Had you been doing a lot of work right before “Dallas?”

Hagman: Yeah, I was working sporadically. I was making a living. It wasn’t huge.

AS: I interviewed (“Dallas” head writer and producer) David Paulsen last week…

Hagman: Oh yeah.

AS: And he wanted me to say hi to you. It was fascinating how he talked about the writing process and how I didn’t realize there were only three people in the glory years of “Dallas” writing all the scripts.

Hagman: Mr. Katzman was the one who really did it. He would manage all the scripts. Leonard Katzman, he was the genius behind “Dallas.”

AS: Was he on the show from the beginning?

Hagman: Oh yeah. Absolutely. He was the one who took us down to Dallas and made sure we shot there 2 ½ months out of every year.

AS: What would you say was your favorite storyline on the show?

Hagman (laughs and pauses): Oh God.

AS: Or a couple of them.

Hagman: I’m trying to think of what they were. Of course “Who Shot J.R.?” was the most intriguing for me and certainly put me in a position to bargain for more money. Not a little more, but a lot more. That was the turning point for me, and allows me to sit on my mountaintop up here. Other than that, Sue Ellen’s (Linda Gray) pregnancy, her first pregnancy, was the one between Cliff Barnes (Ken Kercheval) and myself, because she was having an affair with him. That was pretty interesting.

AS: What did you think of the business storylines?

Hagman: They were pretty simplistic. You can’t make them too complicated. But you know, I did foment revolution in a certain area of the world. And I sank a couple of tankers and stuff like that. It was far-reaching, but rather simplistic.

AS: It was interesting how detailed some of the oil stories were, and how viewers in certain seasons learned about the state of the oil business, about crude oil and prices.

Hagman: Well at one time we were in Vienna shooting over there. In the hotel I was staying at, right across the street, they had an OPEC meeting. There were flags of all the OPEC countries. And so a friend of mine asked me over, just to observe and meet some people. I thought it would be a good idea. The meeting was full of Nigerians and Arabic people, all the OPEC countries. So they asked me to make a comment. A nice, quiet, small speech about how nice it was to be there, blah, blah blah. And one of them asked the question, “How much do you think the price of oil should be?” And I said, “$36 a barrel, of course.”

And they got to their feet and they hooped and hollered, yelling and clapping. It was like five minutes before I could quiet them down. I’d done a show just before that, when the price of oil was 36 bucks a barrel. I didn’t know anything about it; I was just doing what was in the script. Well, I got back home and there were headlines, “J.R.’s trying to make gasoline $5 a gallon.” And I had about 10,000 letters on my desk, so I asked Larry King if he’d let me on his show and he graciously said yes. I did a rebuttal where I said I was just doing what I was taught on the show. I don’t know anything about oil. So please, it was a mistake. I don’t want $5 a gallon more than anyone else does. But that was the universal appeal of the show. It was humongous.

AS (laughing): Oh that’s great. I’ve never heard that one before. It shows how idiotic some of these people must be.

Hagman: Well now we’re lucky to have $36 a barrel. Then again, the dollar is a lot less now. But I can see $5 a gallon happening now. Most European countries are between $5 and $7 a gallon.

AS: Is that right?

Hagman: Oh yeah.

AS: Well, then we’re a lot cheaper here.

Hagman: Oh dramatically.

AS: So what is it in California now? Close to $3 a gallon?

Hagman: Yesterday for the middle one I paid $2.47. I’ve paid $2.52 and oh yeah, I’ve paid $3 a gallon, just a few months ago.

AS: Was there ever a story that didn’t make it onto the show that you would have liked to see?

Hagman: No, I was never involved in the discussion of these things anyhow. I just did my job and let the writers do theirs.

AS: Was there a moment before “Who Shot J.R.?” since the show was rising that year, was there a moment before then that you knew it was a hit show?

Hagman: Yeah you followed the trend and saw it was going up and up and up until it finally reached number one for several years. These kinds of things you can’t really do anything about, except for publicizing and so forth.

AS: I guess what I mean is did you see anything in public that kind of changed your mind and said, “Well this is a phenomenon that’s happening now?”

Hagman: When I traveled to England. They go mad over there. “Dallas” was like the royal family over there. And it was just fascinating, the adulation of the people in it. Much more than this country. I didn’t get into the hinterland, the heart of this country very much. I mostly traveled between New York and here, for different social things. New York is much more blasé, and so is L.A., but boy, you get out into the hinterland and it’s still remembered as one of the great television shows of all time.

AS: Yes, well being on SOAPNet twice a day attests to that.

Hagman: But you know there was a period of about ten years when it was not on SOAPNet and then “I Dream of Jeannie” came along and that’s been shown every day and every city, sometimes three or four times a day, for the last 40 years. So I always had that going for me personally. A lot of kids didn’t know me from “Dallas,” and still don’t, but they know me from “I Dream of Jeannie.”

AS: I see your ads, the little, “You’re watching ‘Dallas,’” every day. And that promo with Joan Collins seems to be a popular one, too.

Hagman: Oh God, I haven’t seen that one.

AS: It’s nice. It’s like a behind the scenes shot of the making of an ad. She says, “You’re still wearing that hat,” about your cowboy hat.

Hagman (laughs): I dated her when she was 16, that girl.

AS: You did?

Hagman: Yeah, when I was 19 and she was 16. She was going to RADA, the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts in London and I was living there then. And I used to date her sister, too.

AS: I think I may have heard that. Along those lines of the “Who Shot J.R.?” phenomenon, a few months ago I interviewed Mary Crosby, who speaks very highly of you.

Hagman: She was my little sweetheart. She’s like a daughter to me.

AS: She talked about how you gave her away at her wedding.

Hagman: Oh yeah.

AS: And she had a lot of particular things to say about that year of 1980, about the craziness that went on with “Who Shot J.R.?” Can you talk a little bit about that? I’m sure you were offered money to reveal the shooter.

Hagman: In England I was over there and was offered $250,000 from a consortium of newspapers, one in London, one from The Hague, and one in South Africa. And I would be interviewed by a reporter, and then he would be sequestered until I had completed interviews with the pool, all the way down to the person from South Africa. Once that was done, they could be released and report simultaneously on who shot J.R. But I didn’t know who shot J.R. at that time. I suspected, but I did not really know. So I thought, “Well, I’ll just make up something and pick up my $250,000.” I realized that’s something J.R. would do, you know. I decided that wouldn’t be a good idea. I didn’t need the money, even though that was a period of time that I was trying to get more money out of the company. I didn’t really want to threaten that position.

AS: When you say you “suspected,” did you suspect Kristen?

Hagman: Yeah, because she really had the motive.

AS: It’s interesting because Mary said she had a lot of hints from unnamed people, people who were “telling” her but not telling her.

Hagman: She also told me it might have ruined her career, too. Where do you go from here?

AS: She was the “flavor of the minute,” that was the phrase she used, which was apropos.

Hagman: She’s a very down to earth girl. One of the most forthcoming women I’ve ever met in my life. She is so honest, and of course growing up with her father (Bing Crosby) helped her a lot in show business. I had a party on the third of July down in Santa Monica, because I have a condo there and it’s right across the beach. They have spectacular fireworks there every third of July, so I invited Mary and a bunch of people and we all watched.

AS: Do you watch “The Sopranos” at all?

Hagman: Oh yeah. I love that show.

AS: I have been really focusing on the parallels between “Dallas” and “The Sopranos.” Do you notice them?

Hagman: Yeah, very, very interesting parallels there.

AS: What do you see?

Hagman: Well, all the people are human people. They’re not characters. I think “Dallas” in a way was more of a cartoon than “The Sopranos.” But James Gandolfini has all the qualities that J.R. did, he’s human, he’s funny, and he’s always thinking, and he’s paranoid. I haven’t watched the last six or so episodes. I have TiVo so I tape them all. I have them lined up. But sometimes I go in and do a “Sopranos Day.”

AS: I’ve noticed especially this season the problem with Tony and Carmela’s (Edie Falco) marriage and the parallel that has with J.R. and Sue Ellen.

Hagman: Absolutely. The love-hate thing that keeps going on. They realize they’re better off together than apart, but it’s a shaky alliance. Very similar. Maybe we should sue. I’ll sue, OK.

AS (laughs): No! And I think the other thing that no one ever mentions is that “Dallas” was so interested in pursuing psychotherapy as a storyline.

Hagman: Really?

AS: Yes, with Dr. Elby (Jeff Cooper) and Sue Ellen early on. It seemed groundbreaking for episodic television. And I see “The Sopranos” as picking up on that and making it the centerpiece of their show.

Hagman: It’s also, I think, probably the writers and the instigators behind that are educated in the 50s and 60s when psychotherapy was a primary way of solving problems. Psychotherapy is out the window now; there are all sorts of things now. Especially the Freudian stuff, that’s kind of looked at as naïve. I think the writers who think in that direction are older and rely on that as an answer. But there are so many solutions available, including (psychiatric) drugs of course.

“James Gandolfini has all the qualities that J.R. did, he’s human, he’s funny, and he’s always thinking, and he’s paranoid. “

AS: What do you see as the legacy of “Dallas?”

Hagman: I think we’re living it now.

AS: How so?

Hagman: I saw a T-shirt the other day that said, “J.R. for President,” on the front and on the back it says, “Oops – He Already Is.” I think we have a president who is from Texas and embodies all the qualities of J.R.

AS: What do you think of that?

Hagman: I think it’s scary.

AS: The fact he was an oilman, of course.

Hagman: And an unsuccessful one.

AS: Which was not like J.R.

Hagman: No, no J.R. was very unsuccessful. He lost his company about $2 billion. I mean, if you go through the history of Ewing Oil, it was a disaster.

AS: That’s true. It seemed like he was always teetering on the edge, yet he was revered as the largest independent oilman in Texas.

Hagman: Yeah! He was teetering on the verge of disaster every moment and then he would win the immoral victory, but then lose money.

AS: When you think about it, deep down Bobby was a better oilman. It was never really a stated thing on the show but Bobby did win the yearlong battle for control of the company.

Hagman: Yeah but then finally my wife owned it. And then Bobby. Bobby and my wife. And then my wife. And, come on. I lost everything.

AS: That’s hilarious. Shifting a bit, have you been friends with Barbara Eden (“I Dream of Jeannie”) that whole time?

Hagman: Well, we’ve been friends, of course, but we don’t run in the same circles. I don’t run in any circles really. I’m much closer to Patrick and Linda. We meet for lunch at least twice a month. We’re very close friends. And of course, Mary Crosby I see all the time.

AS: So was Barbara Eden coming on “Dallas” a stunt?

Hagman: Yeah, it was a stunt.

AS: It was a good, bright spot in those last couple of years.

Hagman: Yes, it was. It was interesting.

AS: Would you say the “dream season” (1985-86) was the worst thing that happened to “Dallas”?

Hagman: No, it was the best thing that happened to “Dallas.” “Dallas” wouldn’t have been on if we had continued like that. We had another guy producing the show, Mr. Katzman had left in frustration and another guy took over and tried to make it slick like “Dynasty.” It just lost the center. You know, “Dallas” was still raw. I mean these people lived on a ranch but nothing in the vein of “Dynasty,” with all the glitz. It was still raw, and still Texas, no matter how much money they had. So I had to make a stand on it. I said, “I want to go back to Katzman.” I want him to be rehired. It’s a long and involved story. It would make a good novel about television someday.

AS: So it’s the best thing, you say.

Hagman: And then we got Mr. Katzman back and we said, “Well, what do we do with that year?” And we thought of a twin coming back, one of those Daniel Dafoe things, a twin coming back. No, that didn’t really work. Then we came up with the dream, which alienated a lot of viewers, but it kept us on for four years. So, those were my biggest earning years, by the way. It was dropping in the polls so I was looking after my future and my income. I wanted another four years because we were having a good time, except for that year. That was the worst year of my life, my life on “Dallas,” that is.

AS: How soon after the season started did everyone realize it was a mistake? Was it a couple of weeks, a couple of months…

Hagman: It was three or four shows. I could see a direction in which we were going that wasn’t “Dallas.” It wasn’t my “Dallas,” the “Dallas” I enjoyed. They had brought an actress on that wasn’t terribly talented to take over a big part in the show. And it was hard working with her. I don’t want to give any names.

AS: I know who it is.

Hagman: But it was difficult and she was not terribly talented. And very neurotic, and didn’t fit in with the team. There was a lot of emphasis on that direction in the show and I just didn’t like it. It was all glitz and this stuff of “Dynasty.” “Dynasty” I enjoyed, but it was a different kind of show.

“I saw a T-shirt the other day that said, ‘J.R. for President,’ on the front and on the back it says, ‘Oops – He Already Is.’”

AS: Tell me a little about your friendship with Carroll O’Connor.

Hagman: Oh Carroll and I go back a long way. I met him when I was a young actor in New York and I had just come back from the service and we had this beautiful daughter, Heidi Kristina Mary. I had gotten a job in a show called “Comes a Day.” It was an Irish show about a priest and it was my second Broadway show, with George C. Scott. Carroll was really influential in my life and I really admired him a lot. He had a five-flight walkup on Sixth Avenue that was about three blocks away. And it was a coldwater flat, didn’t have any hot water, so every Saturday night he used to come over. We’d have dinner and he would bathe and do all that kind of stuff. (Laughs) We had dinner before he went off to do “Cleopatra” and he came back with a son. And the two kids, my son and his son, kind of grew up together. We were very close.

I never made a move; I never made one move, without consulting him. See, I’m a business idiot, don’t know nothing about business, and I know nothing about the hierarchy of CBS and NBC, but he knew all of them. He followed it. So when he went in for a raise (for “All in the Family”) he went in from a position of strength. Carroll always told me, “Never negotiate from anything but a position of total strength.” That’s when I decided when I got shot to go for it.

AS: He capitalized on the mammoth success of “All in the Family,” and you did as well on the success of “Dallas.”

Hagman: He also said, “Never ask for a dollar more than they’re absolutely willing to give” because then they’ll think you’re on an ego trip. They don’t like actors anyhow and they certainly don’t like actors who make more than they do. Carroll said, “I’ll show you different ways of finding out how much they’re willing to go.” So we ganged up on them.

AS: It was very moving the way you did the reading at his funeral. And it’s just amazing how the two of you started as young friends and wound up being the two biggest stars in TV history, in comedy and drama. What are the odds?

Hagman: I had a show against him once. Oh God, what was it called? I played a butler.

AS: “The Good Life.”

Hagman: “The Good Life.” And it was put opposite “All in the Family” in its heyday so that knocked me off. But I didn’t mind being knocked off by my good buddy. It was a better show anyway.

AS: Do you still ride motorcycles?

Hagman: No, I sold my Harleys. I had a little spill about seven years ago and I broke three ribs. If you’ve ever broken a rib, you’ll know it’s very painful. And I had three or four friends killed that are in my club, The Uglies. My wife just said, “That’s it. Come on, let’s get wise here.” But she lets me have a motor scooter around town.

AS: Oh well, that’s good.

Hagman (laughs): I have a big Aprilia. It’ll do 110 (mph), they say, but I’m never going to get it up to there.

AS: Which Harleys did you have?

Hagman: I had a 1990 Dresser and I had a 1987 Softail.

AS: You said the accident was seven years ago, but weren’t you at the Harley Davidson 100^th Anniversary last year in Milwaukee?

Hagman: Oh yeah, they lend me a bike when I go there. I have friends across the country with multiple bikes.

AS: So you didn’t ride there from California I guess?

Hagman: Oh God, no. I’d never ride across the desert. I’m a fair-weather biker. I still ride in parades. (Laughs loudly)

AS: That’s terrific.

Hagman: I still am an Ugly. I’m going to a meeting on Friday night as a matter of fact.

AS: Anyone famous in that crowd?

Hagman: Yeah. Peter Fonda is in it. It’s his club; he got me in as a matter of fact. And Billy Hayward, who produced “Easy Rider.” And Ben Nighthorse Campbell, who’s our senator from Colorado. He’s an Indian, our only Indian in the Senate as a matter of fact. We’re about to lose him; he’s not going to run anymore. And a lot of Uglies. Ugly people.

“Carroll (O’Connor) always told me, ‘Never negotiate from anything but a position of total strength.’ That’s when I decided when I got shot to go for it.”

AS: Along those lines, it sounds like you’re doing well healthwise.

Hagman: Yeah! I had a bad patch in December, had another piece of my liver taken out, it had gotten infected somehow and died. So they had to take it out, which was a pretty big operation. But besides that, I’m doing fine. I feel better now than I have in years.

AS: You sound terrific. You sound 20 years younger.

Hagman: Well I feel 20 years younger.

AS: I read about that “bad patch” in April and I was worried, as I’m sure lots of people were. It sounds like you’ve bounced back royally.

Hagman: Yeah and I understand the rags have me drinking still. I don’t know where they get that. The National Enquirer, The Star, Globes, one of those, whatever.

AS: And that’s categorically untrue.

Hagman: Absolutely. I’d be crazy to do that.

AS: So do you have any acting plans?

Hagman: I’ve got a couple of things coming. We’re having a reunion of Patrick and Victoria (Principal)…

AS: Victoria?

Hagman: Yeah. Well, it’s a reunion, and Henry Winkler is doing it and it’s going to come out in the sweeps in November. It’s just revisiting. It’s not a scripted show; it’s going to be interviews and excerpts from “Dallas,” down at Southfork, showing what we’re doing now. Linda and Charlene (Tilton) are in it also.

AS: Well I expect them. But Victoria how did that come about?

Hagman: I don’t know. She said she wanted to do it and she had never done that stuff before.

AS: I know. Is it going to be something where you’re all together or all separate interviews?

Hagman: No, no we’re all going to be together. Henry Winkler is producing it. He’ll do something smart. Then there’s a DVD kickoff. Warner Bros. is doing a DVD and putting two “Dallas” seasons on it. There’ll be some interviews with (“Dallas” creator David) Jacobs, Charlene and myself.

AS: And that’s in August?

Hagman: Yes, next month.

AS: The addition of Victoria to the reunion is great, but what about the rest of the cast?

Hagman: Well, Mama’s (Barbara Bel Geddes) hard to reach; she’s kind of a recluse. I don’t think she’s going to be on it. I wish she would be, though, because I love her. I don’t know about Howard (Keel, who played Clayton Farlow).

AS: How is he doing?

Hagman: Oh, he’s doing great. He must be 80 and he keeps going to England and sells out over there. He does concerts and goes over to golf.

AS: What about Ken Kercheval?

Hagman: Kenny? I don’t know if he’s going to be on it. But I’ve been out of the loop for about six weeks. I said yes but I kind of dropped out for a bit. I’m going to check up on it next week. Steve Kanaly (Ray Krebbs) should be too. He lives a few minutes from me in Ojai and he might be hurt if he’s not on it. He’s the bastard brother, you know.

AS: Right. The Half-Breed. So how many grandchildren do you have?

Hagman: I have five granddaughters, from nine to 19. And they’re all gorgeous blondes.

“I feel better now than I have in years.”

AS: What’s in the immediate future for you?

Hagman: I work closely with the American Kidney Foundation and we’re having our biannual “Transplant Olympics” in Minneapolis on July 26. I’ll be going out there for that. I’m always urging people to recycle themselves. I mean, we recycle everything else: aluminum, steel, used tires, why not recycle yourself and save seven lives?

AS: It’s funny that the article I read, a few months ago, it was in one of the British tabloids…

Hagman: The Mirror?

AS: Yes, the Mirror. Was what you said taken out of context? Because it cast you in a strange light to say the least, making it seem like you were dying.

Hagman: Oh yeah, that one. I had this thing with the Mirror lady, mmm hmm. I don’t know, everybody’s got their own agenda. Often I find people interview you and they’ve written the article already. It’s from their point of view before they’ve even talked to you.

AS: You sound like you are far from dying. Reading the Mirror article, I’m pleasantly stunned to witness how robust you are.

Hagman: Not only that but I also go Para powering. Do you know Para powering?

AS: No, what’s that?

Hagman: Well you strap an engine on your back and you have this parachute and you fly around.

AS: Oh, jeez. How do you do that? It’s all on the ground?

Hagman: Yeah. It’s on the ground, you’re not jumping or anything. You turn on the engine, and pop open the chute, which is an elliptical kind of chute and you just take off and fly around.

AS: And you do this in Ojai?

Hagman: Of course. You can fly down for a bottle of milk, you know.

AS: Sounds like you can’t take the NASA out of Larry Hagman.

Hagman: You sure can’t, young man.

Art Swift is a student at the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism in New York City. Check out www.ArthurSwift.com for additional writings.

Copyright 2004 Arthur Swift

mailto:aswift@arthurswift.com

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